Simple Conversations
Hi I’m ASG,
I’m a curious overthinker with an abundance of questions about everything.
If you need something more productive to listen to when commuting, doing chores or you’re just bored, this is the place for you.
Dive into the minds of best-selling authors, athletes, musicians and even doctors through the medium of Simple Conversations
Simple Conversations
ERIC COGORNO EXPLAINS WHY MEN OVER 30 LOVE GOLF - #46
What’s been annoying you this week?
Golf has become the Natural Progression for Men once they hit 30 and ASG want to know why.
Follow ASG for More
Check Out Eric Cogorno
In this conversation, Eric Cogorno, an online golf coach, shares his journey from aspiring professional golfer to a successful coach with a significant online presence.
He discusses the reasons why many men gravitate towards golf as they age, the challenges he faced in becoming a coach at a young age, and the importance of persistence and obsession in skill acquisition.
Eric also emphasizes the significance of building a social media presence and monetizing it effectively, providing valuable insights for aspiring content creators.
Eric Cogorno shares insights on building a fan base through authenticity, his personal journey from financial struggle to success, and the lessons learned from high achievers.
He discusses the impact of Saudi investments in golf and the evolving landscape of the sport, emphasizing the need for entertainment and engagement.
If you could take some time to Like, Comment, Share it would really help me out.
If you are listening on Spotify or Apple, please rate the show as it will help build a much better show.
Peace.
01) So tell me, who is Eric Cogorno?
Eric Cogorno (00:05) Yeah, now who Eric Gorgono is as a 36 year old online golf coach, kid that grew up in Pennsylvania, love and sports, and kind of stumbled my way into playing golf and then thinking that I was going to go play pro on TV, which led me to coaching golf and coaching golf in person led me to YouTube and online golf coaching in 2016, 2017. And that's really been what I've been. been doing since then from like a work and career perspective is the YouTube game, the online social media and trying to coach golf. I really shifted from doing one-on-one in person, one hour traditional lessons to trying to help as many golfers around the world as possible. know, our kind of core mission statement is to try and provide world-class golf coaching to, you know, as many people around the world and affordable prices as we can. That's, that's what we've been doing now. We're on going to be going into year nine of our online YouTube golf stuff. And so that's, yeah, I think that's where I'm from a work perspective.
ASG (01:06) What's an eye you this week, Eric?
Eric Cogorno (01:09) Yeah, what's annoying me? This was a, that's an interesting one. You know, I certainly, I spend so much time trying to not let myself be annoyed by things and like trying to look at things glass half full. So certainly I get annoyed and I try not to let myself overreact to them, but I actually wrote, I've got a couple of things, if you don't mind me going through a couple of things. So no particular order, the things that come to mind of things that annoy me currently.
ASG (01:31) for us.
Eric Cogorno (01:39) People who complain, people who complain about something but don't do anything about it. That's like an all time stickler for me. Victim mentality, traffic slash like poor drivers. There's not many things that annoy me on a regular basis than sitting in traffic. Like the inability to do anything about that and just sit is all time annoying to me. Current annoyance for me at the moment, my air conditioner broke and turned off so. I'm in South Florida where it's still warm. that's of annoyance. One of the things that annoys me, this is an ongoing and kind of a newer one, is having conversations with people who talk but don't listen. Yeah, that's a big one for me, man. Podcasts is different, you know, but like, know, when you talk to someone and as soon as you get done, like the whole time you're talking, they're thinking about what they're going to say next. And then just like,
ASG (02:22) Ho ho ho ho. Yeah.
Eric Cogorno (02:37) rip the question right away and where it's like, we didn't really even listen to what I said at all. That's an annoying one. Somebody who talks, talks, talks, doesn't listen at all. Another thing that's been a recent annoyance of mine while I go down my list is now obviously I post a lot of content on social media. So we get a lot of different comments and I don't really mind when someone straight up just tells me like, I'm an idiot or hey, you don't know what you're talking about or this. Like I've gotten over that. But there's this thing that I've seen more recently in the past couple of years where someone will comment like, yeah, but for example, if I posted someone that was like, hey, two plus two equals four, someone would be like, yeah, but, know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
ASG (03:29) Go for it.
Eric Cogorno (03:31) Something that just ended that that's not at the moment, but pre election for us, the political ads and campaigns that were on that I had to watch every single day was of utmost annoyance. That was like really brutal here in the U S. another thing that's new for me, food companies, I've been re looking at more of this and watching documents, documentary, videos and things like this. Couldn't get that word out is like these food companies who Purposely put shit in their food not literal for the purpose of like personal gain and profit That is extremely annoying to me the more and more that I learn about that And then the last thing I have on here and these are kind of all over the place for me who posts on social media a lot is like When we first started posting in 2016-17 You could be a little bit less dramatic with the YouTube with like the titles and thumbnails and a little bit more literal And as time has gone on, as TikTok has come and things and the algorithm has changed, I find that we need to ride the line of like click bait attention grabs so much more than we used to. And so that's a first world problem, like annoying as someone who posts content. So there's like 10 or so annoying things.
ASG (04:46) Amazing the clickbait one is high on my list this week because I've been like posting my clips everywhere and I'm like they have different titles everywhere But I'm always trying to like if I don't have the part where I ask a question and the clip I always at least try and word it of the question I have asked and Did you like someone just don't get anywhere because apparently now bots are spamming questions on websites. So they've automatically some unbought and someone messaged me about it saying that it was like a bad strategy or something so to try and prove them wrong I posted a clip from like an old old episode which I think was me and the guest trying to fix our mics before we started recording and I like put it something like technology industry exposed as evil or something and I had to take it down after about three hours because I was getting terrified by many views it was getting and I was Terrified someone with actual power was gonna come across it and realize that I was taking the piss and remove me from the platform So I was like I can't believe that that is what was almost climbing views for me, but I can't get fuck all my actual cups
Eric Cogorno (05:58) Yeah, man. And you get it like we I think we get it conceptually. Like we even me and you like we would click. I'm more likely to click on something when it's over dramatized, when it's fear based, when it's something negative. Like, obviously, that's the news have been doing that forever with different wars that go on or the pandemic or whatever. Like I get why it works. It just is kind of annoying, right, that we have to play that game.
ASG (06:22) Yeah, the dramatization is definitely a thing with the news because I read some study a while ago. Can't remember who wrote it. I don't know. don't know. might have been someone in London or something, but they wrote the news as 75 % less effective when wrote down rather than shown on TV because it doesn't look as terrifying when someone's wrote it down in front of you. Every time I think of every time I see someone clickbait and I just think of my head like.
Eric Cogorno (06:40) Mm.
ASG (06:50) If it was just wrote down with no thumbnail and it was in normal capitalization, wouldn't really look that nice. But it's the big exclamation point at the end that got me clicking like mad. But I'm glad you came up with a lot of things for that question because people usually come with one thing. And unfortunately, in the last year, it has been revolving around one thing in particular, which an Irish man can't really talk about. Glad you stayed out your politics.
Eric Cogorno (07:01) Yeah, that's it.
ASG (07:20) claim on a very small basis but yeah we'll get we'll get into now the meal meat and potatoes because I have one question in particular for you that I need answered and I need answered because I am reaching this point very very slowly why is it when men turn 30 do they automatically gravitate towards golf
Eric Cogorno (07:45) Yeah, that's a good one. I think there's a couple of reasons there. One being from like a male athletic standpoint, there's very few sports you can play as you get older. So for those of us who maybe played like in the US, like baseball, basketball, football, soccer, right, American soccer, those as you get older, just like cardio wise, playing those things, the injury risk, it's just very difficult to play any of sports you get older. So golfing, think is so leisurely and doesn't require as much physical prowess. And you literally drive a golf cart from where you hit to the next one. And so compared to like running on a basketball court or playing soccer. So I think that's a big reason is a lot of people who play sports or want to get out and be competitive that don't have an outlet. tennis in the U.S. has been something that people play as they get older as well. That requires a lot of running around. Like that's a lot of movement. So a lot of male golfers, right, are just like, if you look at the U.S. from, let's say, 35 to 80 years old, people who maybe played sports, who have some discretionary income, probably a lot of us who are reasonably lazy at some point, like driving a golf cart to and from a neck shot is a lot easier than running around a tennis court, which I think is why pickleball has become a lot popular, really popular in the U.S. as well. I know if you're familiar with pickleball or not, but like it's the tennis minus the running around. We take the movement out of it. So that's a big part of it. I think there's reasons too, man, where just from a business and work perspective, a lot of men in particular, as you get older and kind of work up the corporate ladder, more of those people, members of the country club and play golf. So you kind of meet people and connection-wise there. So I think those are two of probably the biggest ones.
ASG (09:13) Yeah. I have been looking into this since you agreed to come on because I kind of wanted to be able to discuss this because I am getting closer now to 30 and the appeal for golf is definitely coming but I think it might be something to do with are you familiar with the guy on YouTube Bob Does Sports?
Eric Cogorno (09:53) yeah, yeah, I watch his videos all the time.
ASG (09:55) Some of his videos with Johnny Manziel make me realise why golf might be so popular because it is just a boys day out, it? I think that might be the real reason.
Eric Cogorno (10:08) Yeah, think what I think what I think happens is that the people that get introduced to it and then like for whatever reason they get into it, that becomes a big part of just the social aspect. Get out of the house, go spend a couple hours out on the course, have some drinks, play some golf. And it's a nice way to spend a day, right? It's like it takes a long time. That's kind of the one big con to it. It's very time consuming, but you're just literally like out in a park hitting the ball around like sun's on you with your boys. It's a good time for sure.
ASG (10:35) You mentioned the business and corporate aspect of it and there's been kind of like a a myth or stereotype really to go around. Well it was old school businessmen or anything that made it that the best business deals are made on a golf course. Is is there actually that many business meetings happen on golf courses?
Eric Cogorno (10:55) I think there's like less official meetings that happen for sure. There's more of like the introduction piece to it where maybe, you you figure people who don't play golf, maybe they go meet and they go out to dinner or like they grab drinks or something. So it's just like a social way where they get together and you can, you know, the sort of deals that you would make at dinner, those sort of things would be like, you could do that on a golf course. Right. And it's true. Like if you go to a, in particular, a country club, like a private club and you go play and you socialize and meet the people around there.
ASG (11:07) yeah.
Eric Cogorno (11:24) It's lots of people who have high up corporate positions. So you can definitely shake some nice hands and meet some people that
ASG (11:32) Yeah, I suppose then that... have a certain financial requirement to be involved in golf. I suppose that's probably more geared towards the man over than the guy who's 21.
Eric Cogorno (11:46) Excellent point. Absolutely. very, it's expensive. It's time consuming and expensive. Those are like the two big barriers to entry. Golf's always been like a very stuffy sport as well. It's not like the most welcoming thing in the world. Like you want to go play basketball, you just walk up to a court and kind of go play. It's pretty easy. It's definitely expensive. That's a great point. So harder to do when you're like fresh out of college, you know, don't have a lot of money laying around compared to a little bit older.
ASG (12:07) Yeah. In saying that, you became a golf coach at 18. Please explain how you managed to get older gentlemen to listen to an 18 year old.
Eric Cogorno (12:21) Yeah. So when I was, I was, you know, I golfed in high school and wanted to go play golf on TV and took me like literally all of one tournament in college to realize I was nowhere, you know, good enough to go play. and so I needed to pivot and I'm like, okay, I'm not going to go play on TV. These guys that I'm playing against are so much better than me. I need to make some money, you know, like I didn't grow up with any money. So I needed money to pay bills. Long story short, I worked at a golf course, picking balls in the range. So for someone's listening, you hit balls out, there's the guy in the golf cart who picks all the balls up and you always hit balls at him. Well, that was me out in the cart. And one day I was picking balls in the range. was August, it was hot. And our range is like real bumpy. So it's not like a real nice ride there, right? So was there on a Saturday morning, driving this cart around. I was not super excited about bumping up and down in this hot August day. And I happened to pull the cart around on the side of the range and there was a guy giving a golf lesson. His name was Paul Viola and he was teaching this guy. He was under the shaded area. They were kind of laughing it up. This guy was maybe only hitting a couple of balls. Like it didn't look too difficult, right? And he made a casual comment when I was walking by him that he just made $50 given a golf lesson. Now at this point in time, this is, you know, this is what 17 years ago. So, mean, I'm making like $7 an hour pre-tax. And so it didn't take me long to figure out, like, I had to work a full eight hours picking that range to make 50 bucks. He just made it in 30 minutes, giving a golf lesson. So that kind of clicked in my head like, okay, hey, I should probably try this golf lesson thing. I talked with him that day. I started teaching the next week. And so the long answer to your question is he started giving me his lessons. So he said, hey, I charge 50 bucks for a lesson. I said, well, what if I do some of them and you give me 30 and you keep 20? So you don't even need to do the lesson. You keep 20 of it. I'll get 30 of it. I'm getting a pay raise. from $7 an hour right to 30, so I'm pumped, he's pumped. And so basically what he started doing was giving me lessons that he either didn't have time to do or maybe wasn't somebody he wanted to spend time with or whatever. And so that's how I got the first couple. They'd call him for a lesson, he'd say, hey, I've got this guy, come see him. He would maybe bump the price down a little bit. And that's how I got those people. And then from there, in the beginning, I was terrible at teaching, as you are when you start anything, just brutal for the first year. But eventually I got better. And then they started listening as a byproduct of like the things I was telling him was actually working. So, you know, an older guy listened to an 18 year old kid. If they help you, you're like, Hey, there's something to this. And I would always over deliver, right? Like I lack skill and knowledge in the beginning, but I would always really try hard and like go above and beyond to make them try and help them. So think they felt that I cared. and then as I got better, the things actually started working. and then they have a little bit more faith and trust. those beginning people, when I stunk, was purely like they trusted Paul, the guy who was giving me the lessons and kind of just gave me the benefit of the doubt.
ASG (15:21) So how did you manage to expand your expertise so much to get to the point now where you've delivered over 35,000 lessons which is, it must seem like worlds apart now.
Eric Cogorno (15:34) Yeah. Yeah. One thing I've had in my life, man, is like, when I do something in the beginning and I'm not good at it, there's a two-way fork in the road. I'm either like, hey, I'm not going to do this ever again, literally never, or I'm kind of get obsessed with it. I'm going to go all in and try and be great at it. I'm not sure exactly why that happens in certain categories. When I first tried to hit a golf ball, was terrible. I was like, I am so bad at this game. and it led to me getting obsessed to get great at the game. When I first started coaching, it was brutal, right? And so I was stop doing this or I'm gonna get obsessed. And I spent like five or six years from there, man, where like that was my whole world, was like, get great at coaching. I mean, I went to every seminar. I used to work at the course and coach. So I'd work at the course during the day, I'd coach a couple hours. And then every weekend I would go shadow a coach. I'd send these guys messages and be like, hey, I wanna come watch you coach. For the weekend, I'd go watch them. So didn't really take any days off and I would study everything, dude. Like every book, every show, every video, everything I get my hands on, I was all in. I'd get great at it. So I really spent five or six years trying to like get great at the thing that I was doing, which was coaching before we started doing the YouTube, you know, the online stuff where I'm like, hey, I think I'm good enough now I want to share to more people. And then obviously when we did that, that expanded the amount of people that I could coach to get to that big number.
ASG (16:58) I'm going to move to the YouTube thing in a second because I mean my lord I've been looking through your social media the last week or so and got a lot to unpack but you mentioned that when you started golf and when you started coaching it was no it wasn't what you thought it was terrible it was difficult we're going on to know well that's what episodes should be out in 2025 so we're now at a point where people are going to start packing out new things they want to get better at or new skills they want to acquire during the year and it is going to be as you mentioned at the start it's rough in the beginning it's hard it's difficult and well kind of catching that obsession is hard it's difficult like you know it might seem like people get it naturally but it's not always so do you have any advice for someone who is now going on to acquire some sort of skill from beginner how they can weather the storm at the start and get to the good parts
Eric Cogorno (17:53) Yeah, it's a great question. think there's one of two simple answers to this. The things that have worked for me is either like a back against the wall, have to do it like not quite literally life on the line, but the mentality is like, Hey, this is my only option. Burn the boats. Like that has worked for me in these sorts of situations. Like it's this or nothing. Like, here we go. Or as I've gotten older and better and things have shifted and it's not life or death for me anymore. clarity of vision would be the other end of the spectrum. What I mean by that is like some of these things that I got good at, I think I did because it felt like my only option. Like I've got to get good at this. I will do whatever it takes to get good at this. I think that's one end of the mentality. And I think the other end, like now the things that I do or projects we're working on, like I don't have to do, like if we don't succeed with this project, it's like I'm going to not eat compared to before. I'm like, Hey man, I got like zero dollars in my name, like I have to get good at this coaching thing. Like I need my right to hell now. So I think if you're on one of those two ends, it's easier to do. It's more difficult if you're in the middle, right? And what I, so if you are in the middle, I think I, and you don't need it to eat. I think you want to try and get to the other end of the spectrum, which is like clarity of vision. And what I mean by that is like now I spend a lot of time thinking about what I want my future to look like, like writing down goals and dream like vision. spend, you know, 10, 15 minutes every day visualizing. So I'm really into that stuff. Some people that's too woo woo wee for and it was for me I get that. But for me, like I'm so connected man to like the things that I wanna do in five to 10 years and what I want my life to look like. And I spend the energy every day like feeling like I already accomplished those and it's so damn good that when I have the struggles now that pulls me forward compared to before I think I got pulled forward out of necessity. Get good or don't eat. And now it's like, get this awesome thing, you know, and do the work. And so I think from a mental perspective, hopefully that's helpful. and then some tactical things, if you don't mind in terms of like to do's with that as well, in particular with social media, cause we started a new channel, a new like personal development channel this past year. So it's interesting starting from zero again and building it back up. Like, Hey, was the golf thing a fluke or like, can I repeat that, you know, in a different thing? The first thing I'd say in terms of posting particular is like the first hundred should just be practice. Like what I didn't know with our golf, I didn't know what to expect. So my expectation was like, why aren't people watching this right away? Like we post a video and there'd be seven views and it was like my friends. And then it'd be like 30 views. It was my friends, maybe a couple of their friends. It took us like a year and a half to get any sort of traction at all on our channel. And so now looking back upon that, I'm approaching the first hundred of just pure practice. So if they get some views, cool, if not, whatever, just like, Hey, let's build the habit of doing the hundred, build the discipline to a hundred. And we're going to learn a lot. Like, what do I like to talk about? What do you like to talk about? What sort of guests work? What sort of titles and thumbnails? Like, what does the audience want to listen to? And so I think doing the hundred as pure practice with no expectation with the little caveat that you have to make micro improvements each set. Like I wish someone would have told me that earlier. We kind of got lucky and did that. So if you post once a week, every four videos, you got to go back and look and say, okay, You know, what's one thing I can improve for the next month? That could be like the titles, the thumbnails, the lighting, the audio, the hook, whatever, like whatever that is. I would try and fix one thing compared to the next one. And then the third thing I'd say, right. So like first hundreds practice, make one micro-improvement each set. And then the third thing I'd say is success leaves clues and I would model success. Like, is there anyone in your industry who's doing what you want to do? Who's getting a lot of views or getting a lot of Vince or whatever. And like, you have to really go look at what they do and not copy it, but model portions of it that you want to include in what you do. So like, if I do these personal development videos and we're getting 30 views and this guy's getting 300,000, like, what's the difference between those two? Like there's clues in there, right? Titles, thumbnails, their presentation, the talent of the person in the video, et cetera, whatever that is. And you have to like un-emotionally look at your stuff and then the success stuff and just like. Hey, what's going on here? Not look at it emotionally, like how you feel in your gut, like remove that if you can and like objectively look at the two. So I think those two mentality things, man, I think those three tactical things should be a good starting point.
ASG (22:29) Yeah, I like that concept of the first 100 is practice because I don't know exactly when this episode is going go out but I think in January 8th the podcast is officially one year old and something I've realised through the last year is anytime I start something I always look straight away at what am I bad at and what am I going to need to be good at to do this but in the last year the only thing I realised is you really have no idea what you need to improve on until you do it consistently. Like last year I've recorded 44 episodes and there's still 3 more left to go out so they'll be close to 50 by the time we're 1 years old. I go back to the first episode almost every week and it's almost now night and day what I need to improve on but back then I thought I was doing everything perfect. But you need to just do it constantly until you realise what did and didn't work.
Eric Cogorno (23:26) Yeah, there's no doubt, dude. The best way to learn is by doing. And that's where like, I like that concept too, where it's like, dude, I mean, you got to do the first one to get to the second one. You got to do the 90 to get to a hundred. You got to do the hundred to get to 500. And so I think a lot of people who are in the social media space or trying to do something, it's like a lot of time and planning and a lot of time and thinking, and then not as much time in the action and execution. And it's harder to do because you got to put yourself out there and put stuff out that's not great. but it's something and it moves the ball forward. like, I also like one of the things I heard Alex Formosy say the one time, and I'm sure it's been said before, but like, what amount of this amount of work or what could I do where if I did this, it would be unreasonable for me to expect not to get results. Like if I did this amount of videos or this amount of work or this amount of sales calls, like it'd be unreasonable for me to not have some success. I like that sort of mentality. Because I think that's where the hundred comes in good, man. It's like, if someone wants to start something, do a hundred. Like a hundred's non-negotiable. And then we could talk, like strategies and this, that, the next thing. And so, you know, what would be unreasonable to not have success? think it's another good mentality.
ASG (24:39) I do want to get into your social media career because some of the numbers you have in your accounts are insane. Over 750,000 on your YouTube is quite a standout number. But, Blaine Howard was on not long ago and he has so many viral videos because he's been adopted by the Kansas City Chiefs fan base for being their songwriter and singer now for parody songs. He makes fun of it every time they beat it. He said something that was incredible and I've got so many people that are gonna get, it's gonna hit them like a train when they hear it. He said on this show, you'd be surprised that a viral video didn't lead to much success or anything. It took maybe 15, 20 viral videos before anything actually happened.
Eric Cogorno (25:32) Yeah, you know the other thing I think with that, which I'll give us credit for, we've done a nice job of taking the audience and monetizing it. Like viral videos, if you're building an audience, I think you have to really think through how you're gonna monetize things. Now, viral videos, like are you gonna lead that audience to purchase something from you? Like down the line, like a Mr. Beast and you sell something, right, product wise. Are you gonna go the route of trying to get sponsors? Like, hey, I'm getting this amount of people watching my videos, I get sponsors. or what are you gonna do to monetize? We were sort of fortunate in that I coach. So we do videos about how to improve at your golf, and so naturally I can sell them coaching. But dude, we did three YouTube videos every week, every Tuesday, Thursday, Sunday, 10 a.m. Eastern Standard Time for the past six years. We've now shifted about six years in a row of that. Every video I'd say, hey, CougarNorGolf.com. If you want more than Beyond These Videos, CougarNorGolf.com. I could really help you at CougarNorGolf.com. If this helped you, this would help you more at CougarNorGolf.com. So I would have a place to send them to to monetize and I would promote it all the time. And one of the things a lot of the people that I talk with, like, yeah, hey, I'm not really making enough money doing this. How do I make money doing it? So well, A, you need an offer. What are you trying to sell to people? And then B, you have to promote the offer. Like you have to say in your videos all the time, over and over over over again, where to get them to go. We have so much content now, even compared to when I started in 16, 17. People forget about you in a half a second. on to next thing. And even when you promote all the time, it's still, you could do more of it. And so for that guy, right, the viral video, it's like, I have a lot of people I talk with who have a ton of subscribers and views and like, if you have YouTube, you make some adsense money, but like, how do you monetize this thing? And so I think getting ahead of that in the beginning would be smart. Hey, where do I want to funnel these people to? Like, Hey, I knew for us, we're going to get them into a monthly recurring revenue model, have them paying every month. We're going to provide coaching. That's where I get them to. And if you can get good at the monetization, you don't need as big of an audience, I think, as a lot of us believe we do. Like if you can figure out how to monetize them, like a thousand solid people gets you a pretty nice business. Like you don't need millions.
ASG (27:38) Yeah, there's a level of needing to turn the eyes on your content and the fans for that to happen, especially for the reoccurring. And I mean, you're probably one of the better people I've had the chance to talk to about this because, I mean, you've got so many people that are right or right for you now. Like I see your comments on your fucking Instagram, really since then. But how, like have you found anything in particular that helped you? create a fan base, not just people who are viewing your content, people who are actually wanting to maybe message you, comment on your videos or like you said, they want lessons from you, they want to buy your programs.
Eric Cogorno (28:20) Yeah, two things come to mind. It's a really good question, man. Two things come to mind right away. One is being really raw and authentic in the videos. Like how I am in the videos, how I speak in the videos is how I am off camera, how I would be. And so I think that comes through versus people who are someone else or a little bit fake in the video. think, I think when they would watch, they believe that's actually me. and like a real human being in there and a real person and like feel your personality. And the people that I watch in golf and other spaces who have really turned their audience into raving fans, I see the same thing. It's the vulnerability, it's the being raw, it's letting them know you as a real person. I see that pretty much across the board in people who turn them into raving fans. That'd be one. And part of how I did that for me, because I'm doing how-to videos. I'm not doing like vlog or day in the life or whatever. So you don't get to see me other than just the how-to. But I always, when that camera was on, because you know, when you're sitting there and there's a camera at you and there's nothing going on behind it, I always try and imagine that there's like a real golfer standing behind there. Like I'm actually talking to a human being and having a conversation with them. So that had helped me be vulnerable and raw and real. The other thing that comes to mind is in the beginning, I made the mistake of doing content that I wanted or that I thought was good or that I wanted to consume. And when things really changed for us, business wise, was when we started doing content that the audience wanted. What are the things that they want to watch? And so I think giving them what they wanted and being really tuned in with what my audience wants to watch and see helped as well then become raving fans. Cause if you just keep giving them videos that they want to see, right? Like pretty soon they're going to be your fans. And how do you find that? How do you find out what they want to see is you go watch people in your space that like, what are they currently watching? So for us, golf videos, I go watch other golf coaches and say, what videos are getting views, right? Like, okay, clearly these people who are in my audience are watching these style of videos, these topics, these things, and I can do my own version of them. And the goal there that I think a lot of people miss is you read the comments. Like we film every Monday at 12 o'clock typically, we're not filming for the next couple of weeks, but typically every Monday at 12. So every Sunday I spend three or four hours like just kind of studying and looking around and prepping for the next day's And a big thing I'll do is I watch other creators in my space and I just read the comments and you get all the info you need of the audience. Like people that my audience is also watching. Hey Joe, I loved this. Joe, I wish you would have done this. This part of this video was really, really good. Can you do this topic next time? I love how you did that, Like you get a lot of what they want by just paying attention and putting some energy into it. And I think that's how you turn normal viewers into raving people, authenticity and then giving them what they're looking
ASG (31:07) You mentioned when I asked you about coaching that you didn't come from money and I want to know the personal journey you've went on since that time when you didn't come from money and you saw an opportunity to make more money by doing shadow and coaching to now where you're a success and you've got no fans, you've got recurring incomes, you've got an F absolutely stunning business and things like that. What has changed for you as a person?
Eric Cogorno (31:44) Yeah, thanks man. I appreciate that. So I think the beginning phase, like I mentioned before of like when you asked me when someone's struggling in the beginning, what could they do or think about? I said either it's like out of necessity or it's out of vision, right? So like my first beginning 27 years of my life was necessity based. So I grew up, you we weren't poor, poor, but like zero dollars. I never had, you know, up until I was 27 years old, I less than $100 my name ever. My parents never had money. I used to lend my mom money. Like we had no money. And then my dad passed away when I was 19. And that was a pivot point of like when that golf thing happened for me of like, not only did I didn't have any money, but then my mom didn't have any money and now she was going to be by herself. And so like the need for me to create income immediately changed. So that's what I mean of like that what drove my obsession at beginning, I think was like life or death back against the wall. So that's where I was at that point in time. up until 19, right? But then even then when I started coaching and making some money, I basically made money, never had any. So all of a sudden I had a little bit of money coming in, not a lot, but a little bit. So I started spending it. So dollar would come in, dollar would go out. Dollar would come in, dollar would go out. And so I grew my in-person coaching business. My first year I made 7,500. My second year I made 15,000. My third year I made 30. My fourth year I made 60. So I doubled every year up until about 60. And then I went from 60 to like eight between 80 and 90 grand a year. And I kind of got stuck at that point. But again, that was like make 80, spend 80, make 80, spend 80. And then I watched a video called the minimalists. I know if you've seen any of this. was like online, these guys basically like, you know, get rid of all your possessions, sell all your stuff, live very little. And for me, who was kind of feeling like I was working a lot and had no money left over hit me at right timing. And so I went through a little bit of phase of there, got rid of a lot of my possessions, started saving some money. I had some like 50 grand worth of debt that I paid off pretty quickly. And I went through that phase where I got rid of everything, lowered my expense a lot, got rid of all my debt and started to have some freedom, but it didn't do for me what I thought it was going to do. Like I thought that was going to be the thing that's like, this is it. Like just like, know, expense is low and it was good. It was better than being in debt. Don't get me wrong. but it wasn't everything I thought it would be. I felt like there were still more. And then I sort of flipped to the other end of the spectrum of like, hey, if this isn't it, what about like the abundance side of things? Like not necessarily material wise, but in terms of like creating, right? And there was a particular day, and I think the story is relevant so I'm gonna tell it. There was a particular day when I was 27. all, couple of things happened within like a week for me. I was teaching golf, it was a Saturday afternoon, hot day again in Pennsylvania. And... I was on like my seventh lesson of the day. And for anyone who coaches or, know, on your seventh lesson of your day, I was there physically, but not mentally. I was kind of going through the motions. I was like, okay, this, this, this isn't good here. And I felt really burnt out. And I thought, man, I'm 27. I'm like really burnt out. Like I can't do this for the next like 40, 50 years of my life. I got to do something different. Now that same weekend, my friend sent me a video by a guy named Tony Robbins, YouTube video. And I'll never forget, I was in the bathroom, getting ready to go out, I was like doing my hair, and he sent me this video and I clicked on it and it didn't really like move me. But right next to it was a video by a guy named Jim Rohn, R-O-H-N. And it was a personal development video. And I don't know why or the moment or what was happening, but everything he said just like, felt like it struck me right in the heart. Just like the simplicity of what he said, the principles of what he said just like hit me at the right time. And he introduced me to the concept of personal development. which I had never heard before. And he said, you should be working harder on yourself than you do on your job. And I was like, what does that mean? Right? Work harder on yourself and you're doing your job. I click, okay, that's kind of something. Like I've been working on my job. I don't work on myself at all. I don't know what that means. And then right underneath that video, there was a goal setting workshop that he did. It was like a two or three part goal setting workshop. I had never done that before. thought, you know what? I'm going to give this a try. Click on it. I pulled out a little yellow legal pad. I went through this goal setting workshop and it was the first time man in my life that I ever let myself think and like expand what I thought was possible beyond what was just in front of me. Cause up until that point, it was all necessity. need to make money right now. I need to pay bills right now. I need to eat right now. I never thought beyond that. And I did this exercise and it was the first time I ever allowed myself to dream and think. And kind of the thing there was think about your life five to 10 years from now and create your dream life vision. Like no rules, not what you think you could do, no logistics, just like, man, if you could have anything, what would it look like? And it took me a little bit to go through it, but eventually I put that all down. And when I put that all down and I started to think about what he said, which was like, work hard on yourself and doing your job, I started to research, what does that mean? Like, what do people do who work on themselves? And so I looked up people who I thought were successful and like, what are the daily things that they do, right? make them better. Because I'm not a guy who can do a million things a day, but I could do one thing a million days in a row. Like I can be extremely consistent at something. And I saw a couple of habits they do. They work out, they meditate, they read, right? They do a handful of things. And I've got a little sheet on my wall that I write down daily goals for growth. I've been doing it for eight years. I do these same things every single day for eight years based on improving myself. Now that's a long answer to your question, but I think the story paints the picture of when I wrote those things down. and I got clear on what my dream life was, that's what led me to making a lot more money. Like I was making 80 or 90 grand a year, because I was thinking 80 or 90 grand. Like my goal was 80 grand. And so I did 80 grand strategies, 80 grand habits. When I did this dream like vision thing, and I started to do some math to live the life I wanted to live, I had to start making $1.2 million a year. Now, when I was making 80 grand, I had no money in my name, 1.2 million might as well been a billion. or a hundred million or something. Like it was so big to me, it was crazy. But then I started to think like, wait a minute, does anyone make 1.2? Well, certainly, right? Does anyone who coaches a sport make 1.2? Okay, like what do they do? And so our strategy started to pivot, but it all started with that vision thing, man. Like it all started with that. So the reason that I was able to increase the income and the lifestyles like that was literally, cause I felt burnt out that day. I clicked on that darn video and then I actually took action. and went through that dreamlike vision. And I think that's a really relevant story because that's what actually happened. And then of course it's happened slowly but surely over the course of eight years, but that's where it started.
ASG (38:34) Now you're at that point where it's almost that dream point now the Pinnacle. What things have you learned about the people that do make millions of dollars a year and they're ultra successful and they're sharp with everything. What is it that you've realized now about those people that back then you maybe didn't know or maybe you were blinded by myths.
Eric Cogorno (39:00) Mm. They go faster. They do things immediately versus waiting to do them. They build people around them and don't try and do everything themselves. More willing to take risk. Those are some things that come to mind immediately. I've been fortunate enough to spend some time around people who do far better than I financially and you kind of see like, okay, this is how they act. This is what they do. You know, kind of cut the bullshit out and like, hey, here's what we're doing. full steam ahead, let's roll type of thing. So I think that's big. then building the team, like our success in the beginning, it was just myself and my business partner, Mary. And then slowly we build a team of people around, which has allowed us to be able to expand. And when I went from that 7,500 to 80, 90 grand, I never was thinking about like, how do I build a bigger team of people? need help, right? You need people. There's a book by Dr. Benjamin Hardy and Dan Sullivan called, Who Not How. that I read that really, really changed my perspective on that, that helped us expand a lot. So I think those are big ones. Now on the flip side of all that, like those would be like the habits that I noticed of them or the traits of them. I also noticed that typically the end, the reaching the goal in my experience for myself and them has not been everything we've built it up to be. I think when you don't have any money, you think money's everything. And then once you get it, you realize, what it is, right? Which like is a tool of resources and freedom and having freedom that I have now compared to before is unbelievable. But I kind of always thought like, you know, I'm going to do this thing. And then when I reached this point, you know, this magical point in the future, when I have XYZ, everything's going to be great, you know, like no issues anymore, no whatever. And I think as I've learned from hanging out with people who make a lot more money than I do is like those things never go away. You get better at handling them. You have a team of people to handle them. You have resources to handle them. but like those things never go away. There's never a moment where you got it, where everything's lined up perfect and like the problems you have now, you are magically gone. And I think that's nice to know man ahead of time. Like I think that's good to know and like to plan for as you go. And so that's another thing that I realized from high achievers is it wasn't all that I thought it was gonna be cracked up to be.
ASG (41:22) We do now need to talk about some real world topics in your world of golf and things like that because you know as we talked before about dramatizing titles I need a lovely little title out of this so... Something that I found when I was going through golf stuff because I had said before when started recording I'm a complete nub in the golf world don't know much about it but I was so surprised when I saw that golf is getting an big investment by Saudis like boxing is and soccer is and I'm sure there are other sports that are it's coming shortly but are you kind of surprised at the fact that Saudis did make an investment in golf or did you think they saw that these people are still athletes and do deserve to be paid like athletes?
Eric Cogorno (42:11) Yeah, I think there's a lot of different parts here, man. Like I think, I was very surprised when live golf first started and, and the Saudi fund got involved in general. Like that kind of, for me came out of nowhere. so the golf world in the past couple of years had been crazy compared to, you know, my first, what, 33 years on this planet. It was pretty straightforward. Like it was PJ tour. This is where the guys played easy peasy. So that, that was interesting and out of nowhere, I think as you dive deeper and look into And this is all just hearsay. I've never talked to these people in person. I don't know what their intentions are, but the things I read and watch, obviously part of them and investing money is to like normalize, you know, some of what their fund does. Like they spend in other sports, meaning like how they live their life and what their values and ethics are in that part of the world and normalizing that via sports right around the world. So I think that's that play. think that's part of it. And then when you, when you start to look into how much money they have, which I don't even know if anyone even knows, but like we've got some sort of idea of how much money they've been spending in the funds, but it seems like there's essentially unlimited resources that they have, which then when you realize that, you know, an investment in the PGA tour becomes not surprising. And I think something to try and merge things to give the best product. And then, and what it seems like would live, you know, kind of like a formula one or the model they're going to do of getting these guys in and kind of having ownership on particular teams. potentially be the model moving forward. I think as a golf fan and most golf fans, what we want in like in anything is to have the best of the best competing against each other on a regular basis with for something that means a lot, which doesn't need to be monetary. Like I think when I watch other sports growing up, I watch a lot of basketball, football, baseball, tennis. It's like what makes those really compelling is the highest level at a thing competing against each other. for something that means something to them beyond just the money. Like the money in golf has gotten crazy, but it's the prestige of winning the tournament. It's the trophy. It's those sort of things that I think mean a lot to those guys as well. What's been unfortunate with the Liv and PJ Tour separate is we haven't had that. We haven't had the best of the best competing against each other week in and week out. And so I think them investing and trying to work together, they realize that. And I think the PJ Tour with their TV ratings have got to be down quite a bit. So I think they see that, the revenue is changing here a little bit. So I think it's part necessity and then it's part, you know, unlimited funds. you got, like we talked about before, having the money. One nice thing about having money is like it removes a lot of problems because you can pay problems away, which it sounds like they're doing.
ASG (44:50) Yeah, when I was like kinda reading through it and I wanted to get enough research on it to kinda talk about it but it looks like I think L.I.V.E. is still kinda the highest paid one but obviously it is the newest one and it's gonna take a little while for it to build that reputation. You PJ Turr's been around for so long and it's historic that it's not gonna lose it's shine just yet but eventually I do see whoever is offering the most prize money or whoever is offering the most money to each participant it will become like the NBA and then the other ones will become like the Euroleague there will be all their talented people who will be signed to these other competitions and they will they'll be interesting they'll be exciting but at some point it's going to come to the best of the world are going to want to get paid and they're all going to come to whoever's paying them the most and that's when it will become elite but I think It's now in that period of, it's kind of like basketball before Magic Johnson and Larry Bird. was kind of, could be like the best players in basketball at the time were probably playing at Rocker Park, probably weren't even on TV. But I think it does eventually happen that. But do you think that it's case of the Saudi investment has to like stand the test of time or is it eventually money's going to talk?
Eric Cogorno (46:12) Yeah, it's a good question. mean, I think it'll be interesting to see how long they can keep investing without turning a profit and losing money. If that's relevant or not. Cause think that affects things like, and you see it in other sports to your point of like baseball, for example, there's kind of a handful of teams now that pay for the top talent. Like American baseball here. There's like the Yankees, the Dodgers, the Phillies, the Mets. Like there's a handful of teams that kind of are paying all the top guys, the top tier.
ASG (46:38) That guy that got the new contract, 750 million, mean, prime example.
Eric Cogorno (46:43) absurd. Prime example. then, you know, the big difference between them, like those big baseball, basketball, football in the US, they have huge TV rights, right? So their TV contracts are enormous and it gives them a lot of money. doesn't have that yet. Like the PGA Tours got some good stuff with CBS and NBC and some things, but they've got to find ways to make more revenue. But I will say this, I went to a Liv event the first year they came out down here Miami and it was awesome. Like the vibe when you go to a PGA Tour tournament is what I haven't been lately, but dull, not a lot of action going on, you know, kind of whatever. You go to a live thing, they got music playing, there's kind of parties going on. It's like a cool social thing with the golf. And I think that'll continue to attract people in person for their events. They got to figure out the TV contracts. But at the end of the day, you know, money speaks. All those guys that went over there went over for one reason, one reason, this, because they're more money. They don't have to play as much, little less time. But like more money and guaranteed money. And the same way I would, if a, I don't know if you're in post on YouTube, but if a company came over and they said, Hey, we're to pay you three times as much as YouTube, guess where I would go tomorrow. Right. If it was guaranteed money, I'd go right there. Right. So money talks, it'll continue to talk. But the PGA tour has paid people based on still trying to turn a profit. You know, like they're still trying to make, they make money. And so the Saudi funds paying so much money, like they're not making money. And so typically. in a business world, can't do that forever. So we'll see how that plays out.
ASG (48:17) Yeah, I'm interested now about what you mentioned about when you went to the Live Golf experience. It was entertaining, it was incredible overall because we're seeing that at the moment with boxing, this Riyadh season type of thing where originally they were just, we want one massive headline act. We're going to make the entire show entertaining, we're going to pay them more money to make their massive entrances. But they slowly realised... People don't really care about anything other than the big person we've just paid for and the whole show is kind of going to like as you mentioned it's not really turning a profit it's kind of going to shit. I mean I think that's clear they've clocked it now because they're kind of like right we're going to set a date and every the best available fighters that are alive and well you are fighting on this we'll find you a way to fight on it and we're going to give you shitload of money to make it as entertaining as possible. I mean the new card they've got coming up is absolutely insane. They've got maybe seven fights. It could be main event card fights. I think that's eventually what PG Tour is going to have to do. They're going to have to make, not just watching it on TV, the people there have to be enjoying it. The people watching it TV have to be able to enjoy the parts when golf isn't being played. I think that's something that Lubs doing a lot. You see Lubs social media partnerships and sponsorships. They're almost like TV shows. I think that's going to... Do think then what we talked about how the dramatization comes into effect whenever you're a content creator, do think that's going to have to come into the sports aspect about it? Because MBA is going to have to do it too.
Eric Cogorno (49:57) yeah, yeah. think that's part of it. I think it's like, you know, the UFC is a good, a good, example. know there's other fighting companies, but like, let's say the UFC now, let's say they were the PJ tour. This would be like the Saudi fund coming in and being like, all right, we're going to, you know, we're going to offer your top guys, you know, 10 X the money guaranteed to come fight over on our platform. Like UFC has already got all the contracts. They've got the TV rights. They've got the awesome, you know, in-person experience. Like what if a company came out and did that? Like, how would that, what would that look? Like would a fund be able to come over and just, hey, you're making this amount here. You've been loyal to Dana and this company for so long. Would you, if I pay you for X guaranteed for X amount of fights, would you come over here and fight it and try to get out off the ground? Like it's very difficult to do something like that. And the only companies that can do it are just not concerned with having to make money right away. So I think there's, I think there's ancillary things around that. think the social media plays a role to it. But like still at the end of the day, like. If they're just okay with, net, net, we're gonna lose this amount of money for this long, then it's kind of doesn't matter. know, like so long as they've got enough guys in the field to be able to host an event and put on a cool in-person show, then totally cool. going to see it live changed my perspective on it. Like seeing it on TV and whatever network it was didn't move me, but going there live and seeing, there was a lot of people there who I don't even think were interested in golf. They were just. Yeah, there was music going, you're having drinks, there's parties that go along with it. And so I think that's a good idea. And I think the PGA Tour has to find ways to do things like that, moving forward to be able to compete.
ASG (51:31) I want to talk about two... well not X-Golfers one, I'm still kinda playing but one is FN X-Golfers and I want to talk about if we're ever gonna see a resemblance in the future from these two people because we're in a world where everything's kinda becoming science based and to quote the cool kids now they woke so there's a lot of things you can't do, a lot of things you shouldn't do, a lot of things are frowned upon and... Kind of there's a huge stigma now on almost making your body robotic. has to be everything has to be pure, everything has to be grass fed. It's when whole foods amazing. since I've came across the existence of this man, I want to know your opinion on this. Do think there's ever going to be someone as raw as John Daly again?
Eric Cogorno (52:24) Very low probability. Very low probability. And I think that's partially what you mentioned now, which is like the kids that grow up now, like if you're going into a golf program when you're younger, middle school, high school, college, like you're going to be dialed in from a younger age. And I see a lot of those kids now, like it's wild. lot of those kids are not playing multiple sports. They're like, hey, we're doing golf. We're honing on golf. It's just this and then golf, golf, golf, golf, golf.
ASG (52:26) Ha ha ha ha
Eric Cogorno (52:50) So they won't be out there, you know, drinking 12 beers, smoking a pack of cigarettes type of thing when they're playing. And I think the other thing is like, you know, he, he had to have been so talented to kind of get away with that, where you could do that and still play that well. so no, I think, I think finding someone that's that talented, that that's good, that would act that way is of low probability, not impossible, but of low probability. But I think you see that in other sports too. Like I hear stories about these hockey players. playing a game, crushing 20 beers, like doing whatever, going partying, and then playing the next day again, like baseball players. You hear these stories about how they used go back in the locker room and just like crush beers and do drugs and eat whatever and then go play the next day and hit a home run. Like that's not happening in those sports either. And a lot of that's too, there's just so much more money to be made. Like the contracts that you get now, there's a lot more money in line. Like I think if you probably looked up John Daly's career earnings, I don't know what it is, but I would be willing to bet Scottie Scheffler made two to three times as much in this one year that John Daly made in his whole career. So the amount of money to be made is just like crazy. So it's possible, but unlikely, but will be fun.
ASG (54:01) I then want to flip it to the other side of the coin because I followed a Twitter conversation this weekend about this that I really, really, really actually enjoyed because the people that we think of like stand out greats in every sport. we think of people like Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, Tom Brady, the man I'm going to talk about next is Tiger Woods. They had, you know, stories of, it's almost like a abuse to the point where they had to be great. know, Tiger Woods, there's documents everywhere of him on a golf course at like three, four years old putting and his dad shouting some and seeing the things at him. You Michael Jordan's dad constantly made him feel like he was nothing. He constantly made him feel like he couldn't do anything. So Michael Jordan was just a rabid animal to get his approval. Kobe Bryant had zero friends. So he had to trouble himself to sleep because he couldn't sleep. fact that was lonely. Tom Brady was called every name under the sun for a while. Do think we're ever gonna have true true raw greats in sports again because I don't think we're gonna be able to have that approach to training ever again.
Eric Cogorno (55:18) Yeah, I think you're right. And I also think it's hard to get there without that. Like I think the sacrifice is necessary. And that's business wise too. Like you look at Elon Musk, like think about what his life has been like to be able to get where he gets to or a great athlete. So I think there are some people like Scotty Scheffler, current day golf, very nice guy. Seems like he had a very nice upbringing, like, seems like very, very kosher. I'm sure behind the scenes he's given up an unbelievable amount. to be able to be as great as he's been to be the best golfer in the world right now. So I think there's degrees of those stories, right? But like all time great, all time great, you probably need that. You're probably like, hey, literally nothing else is gonna be a priority for me. Like even Michael Jordan and Tom Brady too, like divorced, they typically don't have good family lives at home, Tiger Woods, same thing. So you have to be willing to give up probably almost everything other than being great at that one sport. And very few... either are willing to do that or are brought up in environment where they're almost have no choice. Like to your point, Tiger Woods was more or less kind of born into that. Like his dad decided, hey, we're going this route. And so there's pros or cons to it. And that's not for everyone. In fact, it's for very limited amount of people. I do think we'll still see that. I think it will just be more science-based, more by the book, like kind of to our point before, not John Daly. But I do think we will still see like parents and people who are like, hey, whatever it takes all in, we're doing this, but I think it'll be more around like detailed training. Like I do think we'll still see that. I mean, I still see a lot of kids in golf whose parents are pretty gung-ho on them being pro golfers. That part hasn't changed, but yeah, it's tougher now. I mean, it's tougher now to kind of, I guess, hide that or keep that behind the scenes, but no, I still think we'll see that.
ASG (57:14) As someone who's, I would say online in a way, celebrity status, have you got any kind of fun experiences with famous people or celebrities? Cause you know, you're a coach and they'd be coming on as kind of noobs and rookies into your area of the world or just even people that you've met in person. I always like people who like, they've got a big following or a big presence online. Have they ever had any interactions with celebrities that are kind of out of the ordinary?
Eric Cogorno (57:42) Yeah, I've had a couple of cool, I won't mention any names per se, but like had a couple people reach out to me. I've taught a couple of NFL players. taught a current day NFL quarterback who came for a lesson. I've had a probably top five all-time tennis player I've talked with about lessons and stuff like that. So it's usually people who are into golf who see either Instagram or YouTube, and then we'll reach out. And then we'll kind of talk back and forth. I've had some cool people, you know, follow me on the socials and I see the name and I kind of like look twice like, Hey, is that who I think it is type of thing? And then go check them out. And that's, that's cool. A couple of athletes that I've looked up to my whole life growing up who, ended up following you has been, has been pretty cool. And obviously, you know, when I like there's certain golf, me in the golf space, there's certain times where I'll go to like a golf course or golf event or something where I'll kind of walk by somebody and they'll look at me and then they look down and they look back up like this. and maybe they watched our YouTube videos or something. And I can tell they're kind of like, man, I know him from somewhere. I can't quite tell type of thing. I'll get a lot of that only at a golf course. Only at a golf course.
ASG (58:50) This is the point where I usually let the other guests know. Plug whatever they've got going on but Phil just said a lot about pointless to you but plug Eric what have you got going on where can people find you what are you doing.
Eric Cogorno (59:05) Yeah, thanks man. think if someone's watching and is interested in like actual strategy online stuff, Eric Kagorno Golf is where we do our golf stuff. Even if you're not into golf, you could look like the titles we use, the thumbnails, how we format the videos, how we funnel people on the stuff, I'd go there for that. And then we just started a new personal development channel about a little bit of what we talked about, about building a better life. That's at Lessons I've Learned with Eric Kagorno. If you like the sort of stuff we talked about today, there'll be more of that there.