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THE TRUTH ABOUT THE HIDDEN NARCISSISM PANDEMIC - #38
What’s been annoying you this week?
Stuart Wood has been working for over 30 years helping victims of narcissistic abuse.
Narcissism is still the most overlooked and least researched topics in human behaviours.
Stay up-to-date with ASG and The Podcast
Check Out Stuart's Website
Stuart wrote Escaping The Void (How to Support Victims Out of Emotionally Abusive Relationships).
A handbook that highlights the narcissists destructive actions and tactics, explaining how to identify these, protect against them and escape, whenever possible. It also highlights essential points to consider when asking for help, providing specific contacts and recommendations for safe and reliable sources: in person and online.
Available on all Amazon platforms and also through UK high street and online book retailers.
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Peace.
If you could take some time to Like, Comment, Share it would really help me out.
If you are listening on Spotify or Apple, please rate the show as it will help build a much better show.
Peace.
01) So tell me, who is Stuart Wood?
Stuart Wood (00:05) Stuart Wood is an ordinary man, ordinary guy who has gone through 65 years of life learning the hard way many times. But I do enjoy learning and I enjoy putting into practice what I have learned. So my approach very much is I love learning. The day I stop learning will probably be the day that I stopped breathing. But I am someone who is no different to anybody else. I have the same problems, the same issues, the same self doubts. It's just, I guess I've got a little bit more of a framework and my background allows me to pull things together that helps me to help other people understand what I'm talking about, basically.
ASG (01:02) Let's put our 9 in this week's chart.
Stuart Wood (01:05) I try to avoid what annoys me, interestingly enough, because I could be annoyed by absolutely anything. yeah, think this week it's doubting myself has been annoying me. Because, you know, when people start using labels that exalt you or put you in a position where you feel
ASG (01:13) very easy in today's world.
Stuart Wood (01:35) that you've got something special or significant to offer. The first thing I do is like, well, there must be people better than me, or there must be people who know more than me or better suited. And I find all the excuses for why I can't do something or why something won't happen for me. this week has been particularly strong in that area for me because I'm having to step right outside my comfort zone and do some stuff talking about myself, selling myself, if you like, or selling what I do to potential customers. I'm really glad I And I think most people who've worked with me before are glad that I'm a scientist and not a marketeer because I would probably, you know, I'm the kind of guy that can go into a deal
ASG (02:23) Hahaha!
Stuart Wood (02:30) shake hands and end up paying the other people money. I'm not great at self sales, I'm not great at marketing, but the flip side of that is that's something that I've battled and has had a significant impact on me through most of my life. So it's something that now, I'm having to take it seriously. I think it makes a difference that I've actually invested quite a lot of money in what I'm going to do.
ASG (02:33) Hehehehehe
Stuart Wood (03:01) And it will be so easy to just put the money in there and then say, that's it. You know, I put the money in, I'm not going to achieve anything and then self-sabotage. That has been a, that's been kind of annoying me this week more than normal. Wrestling with that whole idea of realizing that I have got something to say, that I, you know, what I say does help other people. And it's significant, it's got as much significance as many other people. So not quite in a nutshell, but that's this week's annoyance.
ASG (03:38) Hehehehehe Yeah, it's actually quite a coincidence that you mention the whole whenever you're told you've got these skills or you can do something you automatically start making excuses because I wrote my newsletter yesterday to be scheduled for later this week but it was about a story I'd heard of like this golfer who he was renowned for being this amazing trash talker and he first retired and he sat like they sat down and goes how'd you do it like how'd you trash talk people so well like seemed like anything he said to people they got on their own heads and they were terrible said the only thing I done was I walked up and said, you'll be fine. You're amazing at doing this. You're incredible at this shot. You can't go wrong. And they just get on their own head and make excuses. And by the end of it, they talk themselves out of how good they were doing it. It's so calming.
Stuart Wood (04:25) Yeah. Yes.
ASG (04:28) Do you think there is like a thing that plays into that? know, like why getting complimented or getting a form of reassurance that you are good at something makes you think you're not? Is it just a devil on your shoulder maybe?
Stuart Wood (04:44) I think it's like many things. There are lots of potential reasons. Looking at myself, the reason I kind of doubt myself is I was the youngest of four children. My brother was, he was described as genius, but he was a very, very bright guy. And I think when you're following someone like that through the family, when you don't turn in the same kind of level of performance, there is a lot of damage done when you are compared to them because I'm not my brother. As it worked out, you know, 40 years on, 25 or 30 years on, when I eventually achieved, you know, what I managed to achieve in a PhD and things, I talked to my brother and he was... He said, well, you did better than me at that. It was only at that point that I began to see the reality. I think a lot of us who grow up being compared to a standard, either something that's totally irrelevant to us, it's something that whether we achieve that standard or not makes no difference to our personal life. you know, that sort of thing continually. plays on your mind and puts you in a position where you're always second guessing, thinking automatically, starting point, I'm not good enough. And so when you go into the situation, you're almost putting yourself in the place of, you you're already in at least second or third place. Not because that's where other people have put you, but it's where you've put yourself.
ASG (06:45) Yet at certain expectations in your head that you're not really convinced that you can meet.
Stuart Wood (06:52) Yes.
ASG (06:53) Yeah, I had learned this a long time ago. I can't remember where I got it from, but this was years and years ago. I kind of put this on of like destroying my concept of expectations. Like if I was going to the gym or anything, I'd go to the gym with people who were stronger than me and way better shape than me. If I was going running, it'd be people who were quicker than me, more who could run longer. And I just kind of destroyed all expectations. Like because this week I got two different emails. One was from a past guest saying that They liked the way I hosted and stuff and all it was from a fan who tried to start their own podcast but struggled with the communication side of it, didn't understand how to it and they both asked me how did I do it and the answer I let you give back was I'm logging on to my laptop and I'm not really expecting much apart from whenever it's one hour I'm gonna have to stop recording. There's no expectations.
Stuart Wood (07:45) Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I think sometimes giving yourself a level of expectation can be motivational. This is very much relevant to the whole area of narcissism, which I know you want to get onto later. But this idea where someone will take somebody else's doubt. and fears and play on those to the extent that the person then becomes... They almost have this learned inability to do things. know, they... I must rely on this abuser, although they would never call them an abuser. They're my, you know, my lovely husband or my lovely wife. I must rely on my husband or wife for advice and everything I need because they're much wiser than me.
ASG (08:24) Yeah
Stuart Wood (08:43) And I think when people have problems with self-identity and what your own individual value really is, that's the point where you start getting into danger because you either go down the narcissistic route, which is about getting validation from everyone else but yourself, or it's easy to go into an empath route, which is almost at the opposite end of the spectrum. where you become an obligatory people pleaser. And if you're not helping people, if you're not saving the world or whatever, then that in itself is not enough. so I think expectations, having expectations and realistic expectations are good. It's just also being aware that those expectations, if we use them in the right way, can help us. But if they're used against us, know, the negative expectations are used against us very cleverly, then we can find ourselves very quickly in the power of someone else.
ASG (09:52) Yeah, that's one of the main reasons I think that concept of setting outrageously high expectations so that you achieve the goals you actually want to achieve is so misleading because it's a good concept in theory. Like written on paper it looks nice and I'm sure in a TikTok edit it'll get millions of views but realistically if you don't hit that thing that you set no matter how high it is like to fly a rocket into space like you're going to be pretty pissed off at yourself the fact you didn't do it even if it was never going to happen
Stuart Wood (10:24) Yes.
ASG (10:27) So expectations is a weird subject.
Stuart Wood (10:32) It is. at the heart of these people who we call narcissists, there is... Conflict is the only way I can describe it, but they set their expectations basically at perfection. That expectation is for everybody else. If nobody else achieves this expectation of being perfect, that then gives the narcissistic person opportunity or excuse to attack them. But then also the narcissist sets themselves those targets of being
ASG (10:50) Yeah.
Stuart Wood (11:11) having to be perfect. And that then brings on this whole thing of what we call the mask, this sort of false persona that they wear, which is the narcissist trying to live up to some expectations that don't even exist and failing. And because of that failure, continually being in sort of self-condemnation, but trying to make up for it by increasing input from outside.
ASG (11:20) Yeah. When you say that conflict is a driver in this, do you think it's conflict in the way that they don't think they're where they should be or conflict in the way of they don't think the world sees them how they think they deserve to be seen?
Stuart Wood (12:02) I think it's the former which leads to the second point. Yeah, I think the important thing is that a lot of the narcissists don't see themselves as good enough. Some narcissists, we can all think of them, the high profile politicians who are very bluff and out there and outgoing and etc.
ASG (12:05) The Akina Max is on, yeah. Hahaha.
Stuart Wood (12:29) actually have no real sense of self-worth underneath it all. So although they come across as being very confident and very bolshy, actually inside their self-esteem is so fragile that any challenge to that will make them, cause them to collapse and to react.
ASG (12:35) Yeah.
Stuart Wood (12:53) But by working under that kind of guise for long enough, what happens is that that then becomes their defensive shield. genuine believe that they're not good enough. And because of that, they feel they have to put on this false persona, which then becomes their real world. They become so absorbed with this false person, it helps them to avoid who they really are. But then the effect of that is that, you know, one of the things that
ASG (13:18) Yeah.
Stuart Wood (13:33) of characteristics of narcissistic people is this false expectation of grandiosity, they call it, being important. This amazing person, can't you see how good I am? Don't you know who you're talking to? Don't you know who my husband is? Don't you know who my wife is? Don't you know who my dad is? It's all this
ASG (13:51) Acknowledge me.
Stuart Wood (14:00) know, sort of deferring their identity onto somebody else. And so what starts off as something which is them feeling about themselves end up as something they feel about the world and the people around them because the world and the people around them become a dangerous place. It's a hostile place. People are not interested in them for good. They only want to hurt them.
ASG (14:28) Yeah.
Stuart Wood (14:29) And so in that setting, then it becomes a reaction and, don't you know who I am? Don't you realize how great I am, et cetera.
ASG (14:38) Yeah, at the start of October I had an episode with Bob Thomas who's like a speaker in people who need help from mental health organizations or emotional support and he mentioned an incredible lesson about checking yourself, kind of humbling yourself or asking yourself questions about just sanity purposes more than anything before you get to that point of no return and When I asked them, was the first thing that came to my head is do you think that those people that do have that view of themselves, they have that inner fire of, you I'm not good enough or the world is not seeing me how they should. Do you think that if they took the time to have a little look at themselves before it stemmed out of control, they could maybe avoid falling into that narcissistic pool?
Stuart Wood (15:32) It's a very good but very difficult question really, simply because it varies by individual. perhaps, let's say there are two families and in each family there are two children. One family, both parents are totally narcissistic, horrible to the children, deprive them of love, attention, maybe...
ASG (15:41) Yeah.
Stuart Wood (16:02) gifts on them as a means of making up for their inadequacies, etc. So you get two children in one family who grow up in a totally toxic and potentially trauma kind of inducing environment. And then there are two children in another family who are grown up to appreciate or who grow up to appreciate their worth, to appreciate their sense of value and grow up to appreciate their place in the world. And it's actually very difficult to say which of those four children, if any, will grow up to be normal, whatever normal is, or would grow up to be narcissistic because there's evidence on both sides of the fence that those who grow up in narcissistic families are probably more prone to continue the trait because narcissism is generational.
ASG (16:46) Yeah Yeah.
Stuart Wood (16:59) And it's more a case of learning from your surroundings and your mentors, the people who are significant. You learn from those people and you imitate them because you see that it gets them rewards that you want. But equally, some of the people from those environments go, well, I've seen this. I want absolutely nothing to do with it. I'm going to separate myself from it completely, sort out what it's done to me because it's obviously messed me up. then I'm going to go the opposite direction. I'm going to actually work to help people who are in those sorts of situations to kind get out of them. And then you come to the normal family, you know, and you could end up with one of those children becoming a total raving narcissist, you know, at the worst end of the spectrum. Or you could end up with them growing up to be the same
ASG (17:40) Yeah.
Stuart Wood (17:56) normal, balanced, helpful people who have empathy.
ASG (18:01) Yeah, they might see it and get put off by those traits.
Stuart Wood (18:05) Yes. Yeah. So I think one of the things that there are lots and lots of opinions on, particularly in the area of narcissism, you know, if you ask two people, you'll probably get four or five different opinions. But, you know, one thing that people do agree on is this idea that people who are from
ASG (18:22) Hmph!
Stuart Wood (18:34) Narcissistic families do not necessarily grow up to be narcissists and people who are from normal balanced families do not always grow up to be normal and balanced. There are so many factors involved. It might be genetic, it might be the environment, it's very often how our views line up with the people we meet, our peer groups, all that kind of stuff that actually influences where we go. All we know about narcissism really is that there's a switch over point in people's lives as children where they make a decision that rather than trying to survive in the world as other people, they're basically just going to block themselves off, protect themselves. And then it's out of that position of protection that a lot of their narcissistic traits grow. partly because they lack empathy, so they have no understanding or interest in how other people feel. But also a lot of their behaviors are really defense mechanisms that if people get too close, they might see the real them inside and therefore these sort of narcissistic traits come into play to push people away so that the other person isn't going to see who the narcissist really is.
ASG (20:03) Yeah, it's like that analogy of the rich kid doesn't always get rich. It doesn't just because you're in that environment doesn't mean you'll you'll inherit those traits or you may inherit them but because you've seen what they do you'll get put off by them.
Stuart Wood (20:09) Yes. Yes. Yeah.
ASG (20:23) Have you heard of main character syndrome?
Stuart Wood (20:27) I have to admit, no I haven't.
ASG (20:30) It's a weird one. I've only really found out about it this year. But it's kind of like... People think they're the main character of the movie of the world. Kind of think everything works around me. Do you think that's an early sign of narcissism? Maybe not totally there, but it could lead to it.
Stuart Wood (20:54) If you carry on in the line of description that you're using, I would say that's a substitute term for narcissist.
ASG (21:04) Yeah, it's probably a fun seer turn.
Stuart Wood (21:05) I really don't know, but the whole point of the narcissist is that in a stage show or on stage, they are the only person that matters. So take, if I was a narcissist, literally everybody else and everything else is there in this world solely to serve me. That's their baseline belief. That's where a lot of the entitlements and this expectation of, you know who I am and all that kind of rubbish. That's where it comes from because narcissists are incapable of developing healthy relationships with anyone, including themselves. If you think about the narcissistic relationship, it's all about deceit and that's about deceiving themselves convincingly that they are someone that they're not. That's what they're doing all the time with the way they act out their life. They're trying to avoid people seeing and avoid themselves seeing who they really are. playing out that sort of role, they are the main actor and everybody else is their audience. Where things change, I think, or where we begin to draw lines is the term narcissism is banded around to a tenor penny. It's one of those terms now.
ASG (22:32) Yeah.
Stuart Wood (22:52) You tell me to piss off and I go, he's narcissistic. At the moment, people seem to have this grasp, narcissism is a generic word. It's a bit like Hoover. The word Hoover is a brand name, but it's become so generic that it now just gets thrown around if you have a Dyson or you have a shark or whatever, not wishing to promote any brands.
ASG (22:55) Hahaha. Yeah.
Stuart Wood (23:21) If you have one of those, people will still refer to it as the Hoover, certainly from older generations. And I think narcissism or narcissist, people use that as a sort of generic term for anything that's unpleasant. the real defining characteristics of the narcissist are that Whereas you might get annoyed or might get selfish or I might get selfish or annoyed or I might want my own way or I might feel entitled to something. Those instances are occasionally rear their head. They relate mainly to how we are at the time. If we've had a really tough time, it's a lot easier to feel like that. But at the end of the day, we have empathy. We have this ability to appreciate how our actions impact other people. The narcissist is a person who feels all those same things that we do, but they feel it all the time. They feel it in every situation. So if they're going to be a narcissist at home, for example, those traits will in some way come out in their work.
ASG (24:27) Yeah.
Stuart Wood (24:50) and vice versa. The thing with a narcissist is that the traits of anger and entitlement and specialness or however you want to describe it that they display, they display it consistently in every situation and actually they have no concern whatsoever how that attitude of theirs impacts other people.
ASG (25:17) Yeah, people have used the term really badly lately because I think it's become muddled up somewhere that they've been exposed to the fact that narcissists can be self-destructive or overly self-obsessed and then just send anybody overconfident or anyone going through a tough time and downing themselves as a narcissist and banded it off there.
Stuart Wood (25:44) Yes. Yeah. And that's, I think that's, as you say, so rightly, that's one of the muddying factors. There are so many people who are expressing thoughts and opinions about narcissism and putting labels on people that the term is devalued. know, make no No bones about it. A narcissist will go through the ultimate for a narcissist. If they have to go through to achieve their aims and somebody dies in the process, so be it. That's just collateral damage.
ASG (26:25) Yeah, it was one of
Stuart Wood (26:27) It's a more sinister and these base essentially are people who emotionally stop their development very young, seven, eight, nine, 10 years old. And so when you meet the narcissist, what you're meeting is this child, this seven-year-old child who reacts in the school playground and throws the tantrum, cetera, trapped inside an adult body. And so when you talk to them, when you interact with them, when you deal with them, all the time you are dealing usually unknowingly because they're very good at hiding it, but you'll be talking to them and suddenly from nowhere there's this explosion of rage or anger or abuse or whatever and you think, where did that come from?
ASG (27:18) Yeah.
Stuart Wood (27:22) And then it's when you track back and realize, gosh, that's how I used to react when I was in the playground if someone took one of my sweets or wouldn't let me have a sweet. You know what mean? That was how I used to react before I'd applied the rest of, before my emotions had developed sufficiently to realize that I can't have what I want all the time when I want it. The narcissist expects everything all the time when they want it, how they want it.
ASG (27:29) Hahaha. Yeah. Yeah
Stuart Wood (27:49) You name it about them and what they want and how they want it and they want it. It's almost a driving obsession that makes them highly confrontational, but also it makes them highly toxic in relationships because relationships by definition are two-sided. You have two people who decide to interact. They may not agree all the time. but there's give and take. Whereas with a narcissist, there is no give and take. It's all take. It's a one-way flow of favor. It's a one-way flow of energy. It's a one-way flow of emotions into the narcissist. And that's partly why I use terms like escaping the void. The narcissist is like that black hole that sucks everything, the life, the enjoyment, the... just humanity out of situations because you're trying to fill the needs of a seven-year-old that can never be fulfilled.
ASG (29:00) Yeah, so you would say that an artist gets to a certain point in their life and then kind of puts a block over their development and starts to bold like the persona that you mentioned earlier that kind of disguises them as a normal person so they're in plain sight but if they kind of just let themselves develop over time there's a good chance that they might have been able to get some help or they might have been able to like see what they were doing that was going down a bad path.
Stuart Wood (29:29) Yes. Again, the whole debate, you you go on forums like Quora, which is one of the favorite forums where people debate things like narcissism. And a common question is, do narcissists know what they're doing? Is it a conscious choice? And there's, again, there are two options.
ASG (29:38) Yeah.
Stuart Wood (29:57) There are two alternatives, there's probably about five different options depending on who you talk to. But it comes down essentially to the fact that narcissists know exactly what they're doing. They know when to play their cards, when not to play their cards, and they know how to use that to their advantage to manipulate others to get what they want. So a narcissist will enter a relationship or what we see as a relationship where we expect them to respond like a normal human being, but they're totally incapable of doing that. can learn a certain amount. They call it cognitive learning or cognitive empathy. In other words, cognitive just means something that you've learned. It's something you've learned by thinking. so narcissists can look at empathy from a distance and see what it should look like. And because of that, they know how to act in certain situations because it's something that they've learned. But if you were to look inside them at that point,
ASG (31:12) Yeah.
Stuart Wood (31:16) and how they're reacting, how they're feeling is completely the opposite of how they're reacting. Very often when they seem to act with compassion, they are so resentful of those actions and resentful that the other person is getting attention rather than them, that it will eventually, the mask does fall and people go, whoa, where did that come from? Because they can't keep up this sort of pretense.
ASG (31:40) Yeah. Yeah I've definitely seen that before and I've met a few in my life and it can be hard to spot one. It can definitely be hard to in most cases you don't know it until it's too late but narcissism is kind of like a new build mentioned from the outside but it's on fire on the inside.
Stuart Wood (31:46) for long enough. Exactly. yeah, I like that. It's a bit like there's an old biblical term, you know, where Jesus was talking to the Pharisees and he says, you like whitewashed gravestones, you know, bright and shiny on the outside and dead and rotting on the inside. And it's a similar thing really with the, one of the dangers of narcissism and one of the reasons I think it's so pervasive and it sneaks in without people realizing.
ASG (32:22) Hahaha
Stuart Wood (32:39) is that narcissists are the masters of deceit and the masters of lies. They will create whatever image they need to, to get what they need. And the classic case, is this is what actually it's interesting because this is one of the things that that brought me into the being more focused on narcissism rather than just being interested in people's fears, et cetera. What happens is the narcissist has two totally different personas. There's one that they have, for example, if they're in narcissistic marriage, there is one that they have at home, which is totally belittling, requiring total adulation, complete power, complete control, abuse, emotional abuse, potentially physical abuse. physical abuse, the extent of people being hospitalized with broken bones, brain damage and everything else. But those people are so scared to actually declare to the medical team what the real cause is. So they say, I was just a bit silly and fell over. When you've got two broken legs and a fractured wrist, that rarely happens from tripping over a step. But they are so frightened and they're so conditioned by the narcissist that they
ASG (33:56) Yeah.
Stuart Wood (34:03) they are unable to kind of face the reality and they almost feel obliged to cover up for the other person because even in those situations where they've been abused, the narcissist has manipulated them into thinking, it's your fault, it's not mine. You know, I only hit you because you wound me up to the point beyond
ASG (34:22) Yeah.
Stuart Wood (34:28) what I could take. That's your fault. That's not my lack of control. That is your fault for winding me up. And there's always this pushing away of responsibility and accountability onto other people. So you have these people who in private are what I call hell on earth, but in public, they are usually charismatic. They are the life and soul of the party. If they're not life and soul of the party, they're kind of a bit quirky, but they're just humble people. They're people who will help anybody. And so you have these completely conflicting views and conflicting situations of reality. You've got the victim's perception of reality, which is hell on earth. You've got the onlooker's perception, which is this guy wouldn't say boo to a goose. And that is one of the real problems that you face when you start dealing with trying to get somebody out of an abusive relationship. Because what happens is they will have spent, you know, my friend spent 15 years in a marriage where she basically just accepted it was her fault and took the decision after too much was too much. She went to see someone and said,
ASG (35:37) Yeah.
Stuart Wood (35:56) This is what's happening. This is how I feel. This is how, you know, my husband's reacting. These are the sorts of things that he's doing to me. And the response of the person who was actually a person in authority was, but that can't be true. He's not like that at all.
ASG (36:21) Yeah.
Stuart Wood (36:22) And so what you've got is inside the relationship, the narcissist spends this massive amount of time totally disorientating the victim through saying, that's not how it is. Yeah, but you said you have a cup of tea. Yeah, it is a cup of tea. No, it isn't. It's a cup of coffee. I've just seen you put coffee into the cup, pour water in it, it's a cup of coffee. No, this is a cup of tea. And they will argue black is white. I mean, that was an actual That's an actual event that took place where someone made a cup of tea and the victim said, I thought you were having a cup of coffee. And he said, it is coffee. Whatever it was, whatever they'd made, they were claiming it was the opposite and the evidence was in front of them and they were still denying it. And so you have these people, the victims who are so undermined and so... They call it, one of the terms they use is crazy making.
ASG (37:06) Yeah.
Stuart Wood (37:22) It's that their sense of reality is so distorted consistently by the narcissist that they no longer know what is true and what is false. And so when they've taken the time to muster up energy, to muster up the courage to go to someone and say, look, I'm really struggling here. This is the situation. We have to very careful because if all we've seen is the other side of the coin and we say, well, that's not what I see. No, I think you've got it wrong. All we are doing is their potential lifeline is reinforcing what the narcissist does to them every day. And so we are then effectively blocking them from finding a way out. But more importantly, and I think more dangerously, if the narcissist finds out that their partner
ASG (38:03) Yeah.
Stuart Wood (38:19) or their victim has been talking to someone else, you know, they're not going to say, well, that's okay, don't worry about that. The narcissist will double down and the abuse will actually get worse.
ASG (38:31) Yeah, I do want to get into the whole narcissistic abuse examples and maybe like how the victims are treated or how you can maybe spot a victim more easily and stuff but there is something I do want to ask you in this because it's been roaming around my head since we started talking. Are narcissists in a way masters of like psychology and human behaviors?
Stuart Wood (39:00) Bye! I that depends how you define psychology and master, really.
ASG (39:09) They know how to use someone's thoughts against them, kind of that way.
Stuart Wood (39:12) I think narcissists are masters of manipulation and they are masters of human psychology, but only as it relates to them and their needs. So, if I was a narcissist and you were my victim, for example,
ASG (39:31) Yeah.
Stuart Wood (39:41) I would spend time, know, okay, let's just say I'm the narcissist and I was with my wife. Whilst we were courting, I'd ask lots and lots of questions that would help me to understand the bout. Now in normal courtship, that's fine, but the narcissistic courtship, it's all about intelligence. It's all about finding that intel that can be used against someone later. And so in a narcissistic,
ASG (40:07) Yeah.
Stuart Wood (40:11) romance, if you like, the narcissist will come across as being really concerned and wanting to help and doing... It's amazing, they just think so much like we do. It's uncanny. You would never know how uncanny it is. But actually, when you take a step back, you notice that the reason they know why we act like we do is because they've asked us and because we've told them. They then remember that, mirror to us how we want to see them. And we then say, wow, this is the person I'm looking for. And so all they do is they sort of hold a mirror up in front of ourselves and we see ourselves in the mirror or we see them in the mirror almost as we see this sort of perfect match. And so in that sense, their psychology is...
ASG (40:41) Yeah. Yeah.
Stuart Wood (41:06) One could argue that the psychology is amazing, but it's a very manipulative and it's only part of the story. It's all about how those interactions affect them. Narcissists will often be very, very good at reading a room. So they will pick out around the room. They are very good at spotting those who are vulnerable, those who are alone, those who would be a threat.
ASG (41:20) Yeah.
Stuart Wood (41:36) them who would probably call them out. They're very quick at sensing the people that could benefit them most. But when it comes down to the nitty-gritty, if you like, the true psychology of what a relationship's about and how interaction happens, they're absolutely clueless because everything is influenced by this sort of polarization that it
ASG (41:45) Yeah.
Stuart Wood (42:04) everything locks into how does it benefit me.
ASG (42:09) Yeah, they're dangerously good at understanding humans.
Stuart Wood (42:14) Yes. One thing you may have heard when you get into talking about narcissists, I think I mentioned earlier before we started actually speaking on air, there's this whole thing of jargon and there's a whole thing of terminology, which I try to avoid as much as possible. Or if I use it, I try to explain it because
ASG (42:31) Yeah.
Stuart Wood (42:40) For me, jargon and terminology, if I'm a psychologist researching narcissism, okay, use that terminology to be understood within your circle. Move outside of that to the real world and that jargon is nothing more than a means of isolating me from you. If I'm not careful, it's a way of, hey, look, I know all this terminology. I'm obviously superior to you. You bow to my greater knowledge.
ASG (43:09) Yeah.
Stuart Wood (43:10) Knowledge jargon, it's nectar, nectar to the soul of a narcissist in particular. But if you've got people who are in that situation, it doesn't matter how often I talk about gaslighting or future faking or all these terms, it means absolutely nothing. What they want to know is I'm in a situation I can't explain. How does what I know help me to understand the situation and to get out really or to deal with it in a way that can protect myself and that can protect my family or my children or whatever? I may have gone off the point a little bit, but I think with this whole thing of jargon,
ASG (44:07) problem.
Stuart Wood (44:09) You know, and the thing of people making it more complicated than it really is, it almost puts it out of touch for your average person in the street who is the person who needs to know about it and who needs to actually find a way of responding and helping themselves or finding help from other people to deal with that situation and if possible, get themselves out of it.
ASG (44:40) What are some of more common forms of narcissistic abuse?
Stuart Wood (44:51) I think the... If I say emotional abuse, that for me would sum up the real poison of narcissists.
ASG (45:10) That's the real threat, isn't it?
Stuart Wood (45:12) I think, yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, these people have a very, very low threshold for being triggered. So if you speak to them, you know, they will, as we've said before, they'll fly off the handle for no reason at all. So they are very volatile underneath it all. But really, you know, the narcissist is someone who is manipulating other people through screwing about with their emotions. So if I was to say to you, Or I'm sorry, I'll say, if I was to say to my wife, I love you. Okay. As a person who is normal in the world, the term love wouldn't just be a feeling, would, there would be a whole mixture of other things in there that would go behind the word love. It has a much bigger meaning than just one dimension. If a narcissist says to you, I love you.
ASG (46:16) Yeah.
Stuart Wood (46:27) then the problem is you don't even know whether that love is true. It most probably isn't because they're incapable of loving anyone but themselves. They perhaps feel some kind of attraction, but that attraction is driven by the need to get what they want. So you'll find that narcissists are the world champions at messing with people's emotions, promising things and not delivering. Typical behavior is if
ASG (46:43) Yeah.
Stuart Wood (46:56) they're in an awkward situation is they will transfer what they're doing and how they feel onto somebody else. They call that projection. But basically, for example, this lady, when I was helping her, her husband was quite violent at home occasionally. And she eventually reacted. She just snapped. It had been going on for so long. that she actually snapped and fought back. And within half an hour, he'd phone the police. There was a police case up against her for battery and assault that needed to be investigated, cetera. Now, obviously when these things were investigated, thankfully the police realized the guy was a bit of a troublemaker anyway. And it wasn't the first time he'd done this with people. But what you find is that narcissists cannot take responsibility or accept accountability for anything. And so you will find when the pressure's on, when the heat's on, that they'll then push the blame or redirect things away from themselves towards other people. They're extremely good at taking credit for what you do. So this all comes into their entitlement. They are entitled to all the rewards. narcissistic boss, you you do the work, the narcissistic boss takes the credit. You do the scouting, you do all the grunt work, the research, the narcissistic boss presents the thing as their own and they get the credit. You go to a narcissistic boss for help, almost certainly at some point it will be turned round and you will be expected to pay for that help. with blood, oxygen, whatever else it is that you've got in your body. You will be expected to be eternally thankful to them for the magnificent way in which they've helped you when in fact all you want them to do is lend you 10p for a go to the toilet or whatever. They're prone to blow things very quickly out of proportion. They tend to have quite a low
ASG (49:14) Yeah.
Stuart Wood (49:23) or a very low threshold for getting very angry. They call it narcissistic rage and it basically is the adult version of a tantrum. So when they go off on one, if you're lucky, it will simply be screaming, shouting, throwing a few things about. If you're unlucky, it will result in bodily assault or murder. And somewhere in between that, you've got the thing, you know, the narcissist, rather than expressing their disgust through anger and rage, they internalize that and they just go silent and they do what they call ghosting, which is then they'll go quiet for a week, two weeks, maybe only a day or two, but it can go into months of not communicating at all with their spouse because that's their way of expressing that rage and that disgust that you've dared to challenge them. So entitlement, I need it all, I deserve it all, I must have it all, typically narcissistic, the whole materialistic power. There's a guy, think it was Simon Sinek or, I shouldn't quote really because I can't remember who it is, but there was one guy who talks about the narcissist loving status, sex and stuff.
ASG (50:42) Hahaha Yeah.
Stuart Wood (50:51) So narcissists are really big on telling people repeatedly about their importance, about showing off their latest car, watch, wife, house, whatever, about displaying material wealth and material possessions, that kind of thing. all these things, anything really that they can get that gets them praise and adoration, adulation, recognition, even qualifications. They're a great one for narcissists. Don't you realize I'm higher qualified for you, therefore what I say matters and I know more than you. know what mean? Anything like that, the one-upmanship continuously remembering this is a
ASG (51:44) Yeah.
Stuart Wood (51:51) a trait that people demonstrate on a repeated fashion, not just with one person, but it will spill over and they'll deal with everybody in the same way eventually. We've got else entitlement. expecting praise without earning it. That's another one they call that grandiosity. They have this amazing thing coming back again to don't you know who I am. It's that thing that I'm all important and you need to worship me for who I am. Have you ever done anything to deserve that? Well, no, not really, but that doesn't matter because you really know who I am. And it comes back to that intense
ASG (52:29) Yeah.
Stuart Wood (52:42) sense of self-importance. Obviously, of those opinions and traits have spin-offs in the behaviors that these people demonstrate. A classic one in the office is if you're in an office at work and it's an open plan office, for example, the narcissist...
ASG (52:54) Yeah, they're elsewhere.
Stuart Wood (53:10) What I don't want to do is have people queuing up with baseball bats here, just because I'm talking about a trait. goodness. Yeah, sorry. But the, you know, a typical thing for a narcissistic boss is that they would have an office at the end of the communal office. They would be in an office on their own with a glass window so they could watch everything that's going on. They would probably have those people they trust least nearest the door.
ASG (53:12) My emails are gonna be on fire this week. Yeah.
Stuart Wood (53:39) so they can concentrate and listen to them. The door would be open, but that's not so you can go in. That's simply so they can hear out and hear what's going on. They're really into micromanagement, that kind of giving you the nth degree, saying they trust you, but then telling you how to do it and then blaming you when it goes wrong, of course.
ASG (53:46) They thank your plotting against them.
Stuart Wood (54:07) But also within an office, you'll find if you've got narcissistic leaders that the office tends to be quite divided or it can be absolutely united. United in the sense that nobody says anything, nobody discusses business between each other, nobody discusses anything about personal life. Those relationships are incredibly shallow. Communication is sparse. Trust is non-existent. Those are quite characteristic in a narcissistic, really any narcissistic environment, but it's seen most at work. But also you get these cliques. What I find most telling in narcissistic environments is rather than having people working together, people are in little, we call them in
ASG (54:45) Yeah.
Stuart Wood (55:04) business, I think we call them silos, but it's basically individual little groups that link. I call them silos and posses. they're a bit like, you know, they're groups of people, the silo is the group of people who stick together in their group and never go outside of that. But the posse is when the people gang together to support the narcissist and destroy an attacker, which can simply be someone else in the office who refuses to get involved. in those office politics. there are, I think, if you think of human relationships as involving clear communication, a relationship that has depth to it and also encompass within that relationship is a level of trust that enables people to be open and honest. wherever you put a narcissist, that each one of those pillars of communication, relationship and trust will be undermined and will probably be pretty much non-existent around where the narcissist is.
ASG (56:19) Yeah, one of the things that really excited me about this conversation is I think anybody who listened to those examples of abuse or listened to your description of how they act, they know someone they follow on social media that matches the exact description. There are thousands of them.
Stuart Wood (56:39) Yeah, and I think one of the concerns is that the pretty much unrestricted access to technology, particularly to things like social media, is promoting the spread of narcissistic behavior. what I'm definitely not saying is that social media is bad, the internet is bad, or social media is good and the internet is good. There's elements of both, good and bad, within social media and the internet. What social media does is it gives narcissists a voice.
ASG (57:11) No.
Stuart Wood (57:32) They can hide behind a false persona. They can actually hide behind a persona that's absolutely nothing to do with them at all. They can have a false identity on there. Yeah, reinvent themselves. They can cause trouble, which they love. They can cause chaos, which they love. They can promote all kinds of conspiracy theories, which is brilliant because it gets them clicks and likes and attention.
ASG (57:40) Yeah, they can reinvent themselves.
Stuart Wood (58:02) Remember these people, although they're seven year olds, most of the time they are also two year olds who will get attention no matter how they need it. So good or bad attention is both giving them attention and they feel that they benefit from that. So a lot of people will run into conflict with a narcissist thinking, I'm going to tell you when in fact that's the worst thing you can do because they'll just sit there and lap it up. Because whilst you're losing your head and getting really going off on one of them, they're just lapping up the attention and also the ammunition you're giving them for later that they can then use against you and use to garner this sort of thing of getting what they need is what we call supply. It's providing them with this sense of identity and this sense of purpose. I was to explode at you as a narcissist, you could take what I'd said, go to a whole load of different people, become the victim. So you then get lots and lots of positive, nevermind, know, some people are nasty and we'd all love you. So you're getting lots of positive affirmation from them as well. But also if you go out and use what I've said again with other people, then you're creating know, discord and chaos and conflict in those groups, which also feeds them and also excites them. So one of the hardest things I think dealing with these people is appreciating that the best way to suppress their input is actually not meet it. you know, As much as you would want to stab someone in the throat, that's probably not the best approach to go. It's actually better to be quiet, walk away, change the subject or just simply say, I'm not getting involved in that. that, you know, making it, setting clear boundaries because narcissists will get involved more than you ever want them to.
ASG (1:00:03) You Yeah.
Stuart Wood (1:00:22) And once they've got a hook into a situation, trying to get that hook out, seems to grow a barb with every minute they're in there, the barb gets bigger and getting them out is more difficult.
ASG (1:00:36) Do you think that now social media is kind of give narcissists a way of making it harder to tell they are a narcissist, that victims of narcissism are kind of being overlooked slightly because everybody can see the narcissist but they're in plain sight, everyone thinks it's normal.
Stuart Wood (1:00:58) Yes, there is a danger of that. And I think one of the dangers we've got with the increase of narcissism in society is the background noise becomes louder and so separating out, you know, what's Let's take the example of 1930s to 1940s Germany. You know, there is an opinion goes around that such a belief is wrong or existing or belonging to a particular demographic is wrong. It's taken on board by the whole population. Once the majority of the population have that belief, then it becomes normalized. and it becomes the accepted thing and nobody questions it. And I think one of the dangers we have with the social media is that not only does it promote narcissists in that it gives them a platform to express themselves, but also, you know, the overflow from their activity is that one of the things I see most is this whole thing of we can no longer have a debate.
ASG (1:01:49) Yeah. Yeah.
Stuart Wood (1:02:15) that goes, you know, that's not just young people on Instagram, that's politics, that's, you know, that's throughout society now. If I disagree with you, I don't disagree with you, I'm a hater. If I agree with you, I love you and I'm a fan, but if I disagree with you, I'm a hater. And this polarization from
ASG (1:02:19) That's massive, no. Yeah, yeah, bike time.
Stuart Wood (1:02:41) of extremes really from an either or that is so narcissistic. Narcissists can't have a grey area. So if a narcissist sees me as evil, there is no way that I can ever express any good. Everything that I do, regardless of how good or bad it is, must be bad because narcissists can't cope with people having more than one attribute.
ASG (1:03:03) Yeah.
Stuart Wood (1:03:11) if you like.
ASG (1:03:11) They can't change their opinions.
Stuart Wood (1:03:14) No, and they can't have more than one opinion. That's another important thing. I can't have more than one opinion. I can't change what I think. I can't argue with a narcissist and then say, well, actually, it doesn't matter because the very fact I've argued with the narcissist means that I've got a real problem with them, that I hate them. And therefore, there is no room for
ASG (1:03:16) Yeah. Yeah.
Stuart Wood (1:03:42) compromise or for reconciliation, the battle lines have been drawn. So I do think the narcissist in society is increasing, which means that the narcissist perception is becoming more accepted and more normalized in society, which then means that when you call it out, it's not a problem. You're identifying a problem for problems sake, rather than saying, this is wrong. So I think the The internet is... It's providing a good platform for narcissists to express themselves, for narcissists to demonstrate how they deal with people. And therefore, when you get enough of those people doing that, that by definition will influence people into how they can react or how should react. know, most people see a reaction. How often do you see something happening and you instantly go for the underdog? But your assessment of the underdog is based solely on what you've seen in that video clip or read so far in the article. Very often things change and the underdog is actually the oppressor. But people are not that critical, I think, on things like social media. They see these situations which become polarizing. And all that, you know, that personifies what narcissism does. It polarizes, it separates, it doesn't unite. The only time narcissists love teams is when they can be in the team or they can be team leader and they can blame the inadequacy of the team on the other members. you know, teamwork to them is about assigning blame to other individuals and getting it off their own shoulders.
ASG (1:05:52) Yeah. When you see celebrities, are you subconsciously sometimes seeing narcissistic traits in them?
Stuart Wood (1:06:14) Yeah, yeah, I do. One of the dangers of focusing on any particular niche, if you like, is that you can become so hyper vigilant that a dog crosses the road and the dog obviously belongs to a narcissist because they put that up to, you know what mean? You can see things that simply are not there. I think also when you become focused on that niche, as well, people assume that you've got it sorted or that I've got it sorted and I know what I'm doing. I find this, when you talk about celebrities, where I'm going with this is that there is a voice of, against narcissism, if you like, in the States, a lady called Dr. Ramani Devastula, or Dr. Ramani, Dr. Ramani, calls herself. And she lives in Los Angeles. And she said, you know, for the last 25 years, it has been her bread and butter of narcissistic research because it doesn't matter where you turn, you face them, you you encounter them. It's almost an obsessive community of narcissists. And so I think looking at some
ASG (1:07:31) Yeah, they're everywhere.
Stuart Wood (1:07:42) Looking at some celebrities, again, it's difficult to tell, but I think when you see people... engaging in behaviors that are typically narcissistic. somehow getting the attention back onto themselves about the, in some ways, shallowness of relationships that you'll enter in, you know, they'll enter into one and they'll enter into another and you see these guys who are around go through, and girls, and women and men. who go through endless relationships bouncing from one to another, that is typically narcissistic behavior. And so if you see that in someone, it doesn't mean, yes, they are a narcissist. But certainly for someone who is like myself, who is more attuned, I guess, to that kind of behavior, I will notice it a lot more than most. But The flip side of the coin is that it doesn't really matter how much you know. One of the things that I took great comfort from the other week was hearing Dr Romany say, you know what, people think because you know about it, you've got it's substance. She said, I still am the queen of self doubt and I'm still, I'm still, I still get myself involved in relationships either professionally or otherwise.
ASG (1:09:05) Hahaha Yeah.
Stuart Wood (1:09:14) that are narcissistic and when you take a step back and you go, wow, how did I miss that? You know what mean? So in some ways that almost exemplifies how clever these people are. But as you say, they exist in plain sight. If you've got objective eyes on, thinking eyes, if you like, you can see them and you go, wow, that's narcissistic. But because they come in on that emotional level,
ASG (1:09:29) Yeah.
Stuart Wood (1:09:45) and really mess you up in the emotions and the feelings, then you end up... just completely missing all the warning signs. So, you know... An ex-professor of mine once said, you know, experts, ex is a has-been and a spurt is a drip under pressure. So, you know, it's...
ASG (1:10:11) Hahaha
Stuart Wood (1:10:17) I think the thing that in all of this that I try to ground myself with is to realize I make mistakes just because I assume someone's a narcissist, then doesn't mean they are. Just because I assume someone's not a narcissist doesn't mean they're not. But I hope that as I continue to learn what I new stuff and learn more about myself, but also learn more about identifying it, then I'll make less mistakes. But to say I'll never make a mistake is in itself purely narcissistic, because narcissists can't make mistakes. Being human, know, humans make mistakes, and hopefully we learn from them.
ASG (1:11:10) I would consider narcissism as a form of disease. It might not be by definition a disease but definitely whenever you see it in today's world it could be disguised as one. But do you think there's a way that these people with narcissistic tendencies or maybe they have fully coded themselves in this persona, is there a way they can be cured?
Stuart Wood (1:11:37) Uhhh... In order to be helped, we have to accept that we need help or want it.
ASG (1:11:52) Yeah.
Stuart Wood (1:11:54) The biggest difficulty with a narcissist is, first of all, they've convinced themselves. that they are the personification of perfection and therefore if there's any fault it must lie with other people. So how do you get a narcissist to accept that they need help or that they need to change because there is none? There are few what they call high-functioning narcissists who are more, they're not only, I guess, more intelligent, but they're actually more socially aware. But changing from something that is essentially a core value to a new core value for anybody takes an incredible amount of work over a long period of time. Typical recovery period, if someone was to go through from being narcissist to being narcissist free would be at least five years. So it's a slow, it's an intense program and it requires a huge amount of on the part of the, and consistency on the part of the narcissist. None of those things are inherent narcissistic values. And so there are narcissists who want to change and there are narcissists who will go into trying to change. But the reality is that very, very few of those actually continue through. to any position where change takes place. Some become more aware, some become, you know, there are those, I want to take credit away from those who do work hard and realize that what they're doing is destructive and actually don't want to be destructive. But even with those, it's a very, it's limited as to the amount of
ASG (1:13:41) Yeah.
Stuart Wood (1:14:05) success or change that you can bring about in these people because essentially you're changing a core value that has become so deeply entrenched and is actually so hidden and so masked by other false beliefs that even trying to get down to why the person wants to change, whether they do want to change, how they can change, etc. is very difficult because you're never sure whether you're dealing with the mask.
ASG (1:14:32) Yeah.
Stuart Wood (1:14:34) or dealing with the real and they're not either. You know, one of the things with narcissists, although they are totally aware that they are narcissists and aware of their behavior.
ASG (1:14:34) Yeah.
Stuart Wood (1:14:50) their very poor self-reflection to see how their behavior affects others. But also they're not Excuse me a Sorry. They're not... equipped within themselves to see things through to the point of, you know, things actually changing. A lot of the time they will go into something because it benefits them. And that seems to be the hardest.
ASG (1:15:28) Yeah.
Stuart Wood (1:15:36) hardest. The to obtain is of people who've genuinely come out of this and who've... succeeded in changing. So I'm literally just about to start reading a book about a guy who's actually, interestingly enough, he's a psychologist. He is based in the States, but he's dealt a lot with narcissistic people with his particular specialties within the sphere of church leadership. There is a chapter where he specifically addresses how narcissists can be helped. So I'll be very, very interested to read that. I just haven't got there yet.
ASG (1:16:27) Ha ha ha. Stewart has been a world wonder of an episode and I mean I'm hoping that everyone now sees the things that I meant whenever I spoke to you earlier about how they are kind of walking amongst us everywhere it's just people are blind to the traits
Stuart Wood (1:16:46) Yes. Yeah, I think if you look up on Google, for example, incidents of narcissism, realistically, it usually hovers around one or two percent. That's the sort of average existence within a population. But because narcissists don't self-present and they don't willingly come forward to say, hey, look, I guess I'm a narcissist. Can you check me? that that's not going to happen. They reckon the incidence within the population is nearer something between 6 and 10 percent. But there are specific populations, for example, military, medical students of all things, CEOs, where the percentage of narcissists will be up around 20 plus.
ASG (1:17:24) Yeah.
Stuart Wood (1:17:42) So narcissism is something that affects males and females. I know people talk about a three to one ratio of men to women, but in reality, that's only on one, looking at one type of narcissist, the big brush bluff narcissist, the big personality, et cetera. That's where there's more men than women. They call that a grandiose narcissist, but there are other narcissists like communal narcissists who are those who work in the community and seem to be doing good works as their reward. And also covert narcissists who are these are the ones who tend to be a lot more withdrawn, a lot less obvious and work in more subtle underhand ways than being, you know, full on in your face. The difference between male and females in the non grandiose groups is there isn't any basically. So it is a problem that faces men and women in relationships, men and women in managerial positions, in company ownership. In fact, in any area of life, there is a good chance that we will face narcissists from in lots of different forms and very often in forms that we would not expect.
ASG (1:19:14) your plug anything you have out now you're aware everybody can find you
Stuart Wood (1:19:19) the, the plug, I guess the plug, that's all going to be backwards now, So I can't read that. All right. Well, well, that's good. Yeah. Okay. So if people are interested, in the whole subject of narcissism and reading it from the perspective of a layman, someone who is not
ASG (1:19:28) They're not gonna see it anyway, there's no value. Might need to that off for me.
Stuart Wood (1:19:50) a person that understands long terms or has to understand specific psychological terms, etc. I've written a book which is called Escaping the Void, How to Support Victims Out of Emotionally Abusive Relationships, and that was based on my own personal experience of helping this friend of mine after a 15, 18 year abusive marriage through a three and a half year divorce process where she had to live in the same house. as her abuser because of his financial abuse. She couldn't get out basically. And that just looks at the kinds of things that you're going to encounter. It's a sort of a bit of a story from discovery to escape, but at the same time, it covers a lot of really important points like if you're dealing with a narcissist, what's the best help to get because most people assume that, you know, things like legal situations will assume that you've got two normal parties who are speaking. Unfortunately, the last thing you can define a narcissist as is normal. They will abuse any situation to take the upper hand. And so when it comes to things like divorce settlements, there are all kinds of tactics that these people use to to the courts, to deceive the lawyers, to deceive friends, to get friends to gang up on you. Basically, try to bankrupt the person. Are you?